Author Topic: Kent Hovind fanatics: NIV = Gays = Darwinism = Hitler  (Read 2260 times)

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Offline Meshakhad

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Re: Kent Hovind fanatics: NIV = Gays = Darwinism = Hitler
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2013, 10:22:55 PM »
I find the whole thing ridiculous, as I hold that all translations are imperfect, and therefore the only inerrant version of the Bible is the original Hebrew.
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Offline doomcup

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Re: Kent Hovind fanatics: NIV = Gays = Darwinism = Hitler
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2013, 02:02:46 AM »
I have my own problems with the NIV, but I think it's safe to say that they're not the ones Mr. Hovind has. Also I'm laughing pretty hard at his rationale for old manuscripts not being trustworthy, talking about them not being used, since using manuscripts is apparently like using bars of soap.

Misquoting Jesus was particularly enlightening about  the problems a biblical inerrancy proponent would have a hard time overcoming.

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Re: Kent Hovind fanatics: NIV = Gays = Darwinism = Hitler
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2013, 02:33:52 AM »
Quote
The infamous Holocaust that resulted from their admiration of Darwin's hypothesis of "natural selection" brought death to millions of innocent men, women, and children.

That akward moment where Hitler banned evolution.

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Offline the_ignored

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Re: Kent Hovind fanatics: NIV = Gays = Darwinism = Hitler
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2013, 04:07:24 AM »
So, any recommendations for the KJV cultists?
Yes, but if I say it on a public forum, homeland security will get called onto my ass.


Offline the_ignored

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Re: Kent Hovind fanatics: NIV = Gays = Darwinism = Hitler
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2013, 05:17:13 AM »
Very late edit (as Oct 1, 2014!):
PZ Myers has a talk about this as well, including a claim that Hitler did use the word "evolutionary".
end of edit


Last edit, I hope:
Two  more links that I find informative:
--http://etb-darwin.blogspot.ca/2012/04/response-to-darwinism-and-nazi-race.html <-- a response to the AiG article

--http://coelsblog.wordpress.com/2011/11/08/nazi-racial-ideology-was-religious-creationist-and-opposed-to-darwinism/
end of edit

To those who claim that there was a link between Darwin and Hitler, this is basically reprinted from a post that I put on Ray Comfort's blog once, with minor corrections about Karl Leuger and added info about Richard Weikart.


How many times did Hitler say that he admired Darwin? How many times did Hitler mention Darwain in his writings? I've read Mein Kampf, and I can tell you. None.

This is maybe an indicator of how much Hitler liked Darwin
Quote
In 1935, Die Bücherei, the official Nazi journal for lending libraries listed books to reject:

Writings of a philosophical and social nature whose content deals with the false scientific enlightenment of primitive Darwinism and Monism (Häckel). (Die Bücherei 1935, 279)

They made an undated "Blacklist for Public Libraries and Commercial Lending Libraries" includes the following on a list of literature which "absolutely must be removed":
c) All writings that ridicule, belittle or besmirch the Christian religion and its institution, faith in God, or other things that are holy to the healthy sentiments of the Volk. (Blacklist n.d.)

from the Index to Creationist Claims is where I first found this. Check out his source.


Guess who Hitler did say he admired in his book? Martin Luther. The guy who wrote On the Jews and Their Lies... He's a creationist hero, not a "darwinist".

Here's another guy who admired your Martin Luther...
Julius Streicher (one of Hitler's top henchmen and publisher of the anti-Semitic Der Sturmer) was asked during the Nuremberg trials if there were any other publications in Germany which treated the Jewish question in an anti-Semitic way., Streicher said:
Quote
Dr. Martin Luther would very probably sit in my place in the defendants' dock today, if this book had been taken into consideration by the Prosecution. In the book 'The Jews and Their Lies,' Dr. Martin Luther writes that the Jews are a serpent's brood and one should burn down their synagogues and destroy them...

Trial of The Major War Criminals Before the International Military Tribunal, Nuremberg, 14 November 1945-- 1 October 1946, Vol. 12, p.318


In Mein Kampf, Hitler said that it was some christian-styled politico, Karl Leuger who first inculated anti-Jewish hatred in him.
(see Hitler, Mein Kampf: Volume 1, Chapter 2.)

Check it:
Quote
I was not in agreement with the sharp anti-Semitic tone, but from time to time I read arguments which gave me some food for thought. At all events, these occasions slowly made me acquainted with the man and the movement, which in those days guided Vienna's destinies: Dr. Karl Lueger and the Christian Social Party ... The man and the movement seemed 'reactionary' in my eyes. My common sense of justice, however, forced me to change this judgment in proportion as I had occasion to become acquainted with the man and his work; and slowly my fair judgment turned to unconcealed admiration. Today, more than ever, I regard this man as the greatest German mayor of all times ... How many of my basic principles were upset by this change in my attitude toward the Christian Social movement! My views with regard to anti-Semitism thus succumbed to the passage of time, and this was my greatest transformation of all.

More Hitler fun as he caters to his target audience in his book. Guess who it is, "darwinists" or someone else?
Quote
Certainly we don't have to discuss these matters with the Jews, the most modern inventors of this cultural perfume. Their whole existence is an embodied protest against the aesthetics of the Lord's image.
Mein Kampf Volume 1, Chapter 6.

Quote
What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence and reproduction of our race and our people, the sustenance of our children and the purity of our blood, the freedom and independence of the fatherland, so that our people may mature for the fulfillment of the mission allotted it by the creator of the universe.
Mein Kampf Volume 1, Chapter 9.

You can say he didn't believe that himself, that he wasn't a true "Christian", but so what? Who do you think he was catering to there?

How much stuff from Mein Kampf did Stein show that had Hitler pandering to "darwinists" as much?

Hitler:
Quote
For us, this is not a problem you can turn a blind eye to-one to be solved by small concessions. For us, it is a problem of whether our nation can ever recover its health, whether the Jewish spirit can ever really be eradicated. Don't be misled into thinking you can fight a disease without killing the carrier, without destroying the bacillus. Don't think you can fight racial tuberculosis without taking care to rid the nation of the carrier of that racial tuberculosis. This Jewish contamination will not subside, this poisoning of the nation will not end, until the carrier himself, the Jew, has been banished from our midst. Speech delivered by Hitler in Salzburg, 7 or 8 August 1920. (NSDAP meeting)

Did creationists go after the guy who came up with the germ theory of disease?
Read Mein Kampf. There's more of that.

For similar information, check out GENOCIDE AS IMMUNOLOGY:  The Psychosomatic Source of Culture by Richard Koenigsberg



For some of Darwin's views about "races", check out his Descent of Man from 1871

Quote
But the most weighty of all the arguments against treating the races of man as distinct species, is that they graduate into each other, independently in many cases, as far as we can judge, of their having intercrossed. Man has been studied more carefully than any other animal, and yet there is the greatest possible diversity amongst capable judges whether he should be classed as a single species or race, or as two (Virey), as three (Jacquinot), as four (Kant), five (Blumenbach), six (Buffon), seven (Hunter), eight (Agassiz), eleven (Pickering), fifteen (Bory de St-Vincent), sixteen (Desmoulins), twenty-two (Morton), sixty (Crawfurd), or as sixty-three, according to Burke. This diversity of judgment does not prove that the races ought not to be ranked as species, but it shews that they graduate into each other, and that it is hardly possible to discover clear distinctive characters between them."

Edit.  Buggered up the quote.   This following statement was accidentally included in the quote when it was just supposed to be right after it:
(you do realize that all people thought like the first part of the last sentence above in Darwin’s time, but it’s Darwin’s observations that led him to say "it is hardly possible to discover distinictive character between them.)

About Darwin's first book,
On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life, when they talk about "races" it's used as an alternative for "varieties" – the first use in the book refers to "the several races, for instance, of the cabbage", and Darwin proceeds to discuss "the hereditary varieties or races of our domestic animals and plants".[10]
From Wikipedia about The Origin of Species.

Where did Darwin mention Jews at all, much less those of the virulence expressed in Martin Luther's On the Jews and their Lies?

Try looking up "blood libel" on the net. See how much "darwinism" is in there. The Jewish Encyclopedia may be a good place to look, too.


The Popes Against the Jews: The Vatican's Role in the Rise of Modern Anti-Semitism
by David I. Kertzer


After Auschwitz: Religion and the Origins of the Death Camps. Bobbs-Merrill, Indianapolis, Ind., 1966

Quote
Theologian Richard Rubenstein wrote that the Nazis "did not invent a new villain...They took over the 2,000-year-old Christian trdition of the Jew as villain...The roots of the death camps must be sought in the mythic structure of Christianity...Myths concerning the demonological role of the Jews have been operative in Christianity for centuries...
Has God Rejected His People? Anti-Judaism in the Christian Church, Abingdon, Nashville, Tenn. 1982

Quote
Theologian Clark Williamson of Christian Theological Seminary, Indianapolis, said centuries of Christian hostility to Jews "prepared the way for the Holocaust" he said the Nazis "are inconcievable apart from this Christian tradition. Hitler's pogrom, for all its distinctiveness, is the zenith of a long Christian heritage of teaching and practice against Jews.

Fratricide: The Theological Roots of Anti-Semitism

Dagobert Runes' books: "The Jew and the Cross" and "The War Against the Jew" by Philosophical Library, New York.
Quote
Everything Hitler did to the Jews, all the horrible, unspeakable misdeeds, had already been done to the smitten people before by the Christian churches....The isolation of Jews into ghetto camps, the wearing of the yellow spot, the burning of Jewish books, and finally the burning of the people-Hitler learned it all from the church. However, the church burned Jewish women and children alive, while Hitler granted them a quicker death, choking them first with gas.


Here’s a Jewish site where they discuss anti-semitism. Oddly enough, evolution is not brought up…guess what is??

The jewsforjudaism site. Check out the "New Testament Anti-Semitism" section of the Knowledge Base.


As for Richard Weikart, the author of From Darwin to Hitler and other such tomes,  who is the creationists' favourite historian when it comes to Darwin and Hitler?

He's not all he's cracked up to be :

Quote
To be fair to Weikart, his webpage lists his replies to historian critics, including Richards (evidently Weikart has another critic who bashed his book in the Journal of Modern History, although I have not yet read the review in the March 2006 issue of the journal).

Weikart’s reply is basically “But I didn’t mean to tar Darwin and evolution with the odious reputation of Hitler and the Nazis, I put some weak disclaimers to this effect at the beginning of my book.” But this is ludicrous. The title of Weikart’s book is From Darwin to Hitler, and he has participated in and endorsed the streams of anti-evolution propaganda put out by the Discovery Institute and related groups – see the links above, and don’t miss www.darwintohitler.com – based explicitly on Weikart’s book (which, if memory serves, the Discovery Institute financed in the first place). At best, Weikart is an innocent academic who is being used by the creationists for their own nefarious ends. But it’s impossible to believe that he is that stupid, especially since he has regularly shown up at ID conferences and events (and in their videos) to advocate his thesis.

Edit on Oct 6, 2013:
Was Hitler a Darwinian?

Edit on Oct 13, 2013
more info by Gary S. Hurd

even more by Gary S. Hurd
« Last Edit: October 05, 2014, 10:22:55 PM by the_ignored »

Offline WarGoatHK417

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Re: Kent Hovind fanatics: NIV = Gays = Darwinism = Hitler
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2013, 05:48:44 PM »
So, any recommendations for the KJV cultists?
Yes, but if I say it on a public forum, homeland security will get called onto my ass.
D you mean metal to troll 'em with, not "go fuck yourself with a Husqvarna chainsaw", etc?  Not that I don't sympathize with the latter.
Either way, the upside is, if it comes to Homeland Security's attention, Moonbattery would also likely post it as an example of "terrorist-sympathizing gay atheist psycho lib'ruls at FSTDT fantasize about murder and mutilation Bible-believing Christians".  I say this because Dave Blount hates good music almost as much as he loves licking Jean Raspail's asshole,  as Rabbit of Caerbannog has documented splendidly*.

*There would be a link there, but I'm tired of putting so many freaking links already in this minor post, so if it's okay with the rest of you, I'll add this one later.  For those who aren't already familiar with Dave Blount's recently growing love affair with straight-up biological racialism, this post is particularly famous.** 
(click to show/hide)

**I would imagine the cognitive dissonance of someone who cites Neo-Nazi "educational material" like Camp of the Saints and Metapedia while hating Hitler at the same time is only possible if one believes that the NSDAP folks were liberals, in either the classic or bullshit-American-politics sense.
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Offline WarGoatHK417

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Re: Kent Hovind fanatics: NIV = Gays = Darwinism = Hitler
« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2013, 05:53:20 PM »
To those who claim that there was a link between Darwin and Hitler, this is basically reprinted from a post that I put on Ray Comfort's blog once, with minor corrections about Karl Leuger and added info about Richard Weikart.

(click to show/hide)
You, sir/madam/entity, are fucking awesome.

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« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 07:34:45 PM by WarGoatHK417 »
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Offline WarGoatHK417

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Re: Kent Hovind fanatics: NIV = Gays = Darwinism = Hitler
« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2013, 07:12:03 PM »
I have my own problems with the NIV, but I think it's safe to say that they're not the ones Mr. Hovind has. Also I'm laughing pretty hard at his rationale for old manuscripts not being trustworthy, talking about them not being used, since using manuscripts is apparently like using bars of soap.

Misquoting Jesus was particularly enlightening about  the problems a biblical inerrancy proponent would have a hard time overcoming.

There is nothing to say here but right. freaking. on.
There is probably a brilliant post someone made somewhere about why a translation that basically keeps the translation errors of KJV, but updated with modern English for modern misogynists and homophobes, should not be the go-to translation for the majority of English-speaking Protestants...
And, of course, since Misquoting Jesus is convincing and difficult to refute (and Bart Ehrman rocks, as long as it's not an in-person debate), it's easy for them to believe "homosexual", "liberal", "watering down scripture"*, "atheist evolutionist poison" and therefore "seductive lies of the devil," meaning that congregants who are "good Bible-believing Christians" had better avoid it like Harry Potter and Wendy McElroy (you should definitely read her "blasphemous heresy" here if you're interested).
This makes it deliciously ironic when the Moonbattery crowd goes on to praise another atheist who makes Ehrman look like an extremely pious monk.  Not to mention John Derbyshire.  Apparently it's only a person they imagine to be an atheist (who is also a Muslim at the same time) that Blount & Friends has a problem with.

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On a more positive note...

(And then there's more boring crap explaining the methodology of my lengthy responses.  Avoid if uninterested)
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« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 08:30:19 PM by WarGoatHK417 »
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Offline Dakota Bob

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Re: Kent Hovind fanatics: NIV = Gays = Darwinism = Hitler
« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2013, 04:04:29 AM »
Might want to be editing your posts there, sonny.

Offline WarGoatHK417

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Re: Kent Hovind fanatics: NIV = Gays = Darwinism = Hitler
« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2013, 05:11:54 AM »
Might want to be editing your posts there, sonny.

That last one was posted by mistake.  Are there other ones that need editing??

@R.U. Sirius: You mean I should copy everything from my previous reply posts and paste it all in a single post, then delete the old ones?  I can do that, I just made separate posts because each reply seemed lengthy and topically divergent, and at some point, the character limit is reached, so multiple reply posts become necessary anyway.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2013, 03:57:52 PM by WarGoatHK417 »
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Offline R. U. Sirius

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Re: Kent Hovind fanatics: NIV = Gays = Darwinism = Hitler
« Reply #25 on: May 19, 2013, 06:11:22 AM »
It gets annoying to people when one person makes multiple posts in a row. It's considered in better form to make one long post replying to all of the ones you want to reply to. Check out some of SpukiKitty's recent posts for examples of this.
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Offline the_ignored

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Re: Kent Hovind fanatics: NIV = Gays = Darwinism = Hitler
« Reply #26 on: May 19, 2013, 09:56:53 AM »
For those interested, there is an old conversation about Darwin and his supposed "racism" in this thread on another forum.  I've linked to this particular post because he mentions Weikart here, and he does a good job talking about Darwin's book.

That poster has a kickass quote from ICR founder Henry Morris and his views about race.  It's a real eye-opener.